España
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Spain, Gibraltar, Catalonia and the Basque Country
Enviado por el día 18 de Abril de 2004 a las 14:51
The discussions about Catalonia, the Basque Country and Gibraltar arouse strong feelings among Madrid-oriented Spaniards. In reference to the double-speak of Spain in the question of Gibraltar, in terms of the United Nations decolonization committee, after the successful process in East Timor, there are currently 12 Non-Self-Governing Territories: American Somoa, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Guam, Montserrat, New Caledonia, Pitcairn, St. Helena, Tokelau, Turks and Caicos Islands, United States Virgin Islands, and Western Sahara.
It is interesting to see that much of these territories are administered by the challengers of Spain in terms of territorial integrity, that is the United Kingdom and Morocco. At the same time, Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands are not included in the list. So, there is no double-speak in Spain about this question in terms of international law.
In relation with the Gibraltar problem, it is clear, in terms of UN resolutions, that Gibraltar is part of the territory of Spain. Nothing can change that reality. The British population there has, anyway, clear rights. In my opinion, the right to maintain British nationality and citizenship, having at the same time the right to Spanish citizenship; the right to cultural sovereignty – culture, education, etc. - and the right to territorial self-government. In relation to this last question, in the context of resolution of problems of sovereignty, it would be interesting to introduce in the Spanish Constitution the principle of no possibility of change in the Gibraltar Constitution without the consent of the British people of Gibraltar.
In relation with the Basque and Catalan question, in the long-term we must all accept in Spain the principle of self-determination, as a political aspiration, in the way that the Supreme Court of Canada did in reference to Quebec. The only alternative is force and democratic people can not assume this.
At the same time, people that accept this basic principle and are not nationalist must create an alternative to Spanish and Basque or Catalan nationalism. In my opinion, this alternative includes these principles:
1.- The constitutional regulation of territorial self-determination. Independence can be achieved but in a legal context and with enough support (at least 50% of the Census).
2.- The principle of equal citizenship in all the territory for all the actual citizens and descendants, with disregard to questions of national origin and future status of the different territories.
3.- The principle of cultural sovereignty for the different nationalities in the different territories, with capacity to participate independently in the international affairs in this dimension – culture, education, etc- .
4.- The equality of rights of the different nationalities and cultures in all the territory, specially in the language dimension.
A multicultural approach to common services (education, health care, social services, etc), with guarantees for all languages.
The strict separation of territorial entities (State and Regional authorities) and culture or nationality.
The technical status of enclaves or territories is the result of historic events of little current relevance. Ceuta and Melilla are just as much a part of Morocco and Gibraltar is of Spain. Some of the non-self governing territories listed do not want independence. On point 1 above, the Spanish Government has not permitted a plebiscite in the Basque Country or Catalonia for fear that the result would be a defeat for it, just as the Partido Popular was disappointed not to win the last Basque elections.
It is interesting to see that much of these territories are administered by the challengers of Spain in terms of territorial integrity, that is the United Kingdom and Morocco. At the same time, Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands are not included in the list. So, there is no double-speak in Spain about this question in terms of international law.
In relation with the Gibraltar problem, it is clear, in terms of UN resolutions, that Gibraltar is part of the territory of Spain. Nothing can change that reality. The British population there has, anyway, clear rights. In my opinion, the right to maintain British nationality and citizenship, having at the same time the right to Spanish citizenship; the right to cultural sovereignty – culture, education, etc. - and the right to territorial self-government. In relation to this last question, in the context of resolution of problems of sovereignty, it would be interesting to introduce in the Spanish Constitution the principle of no possibility of change in the Gibraltar Constitution without the consent of the British people of Gibraltar.
In relation with the Basque and Catalan question, in the long-term we must all accept in Spain the principle of self-determination, as a political aspiration, in the way that the Supreme Court of Canada did in reference to Quebec. The only alternative is force and democratic people can not assume this.
At the same time, people that accept this basic principle and are not nationalist must create an alternative to Spanish and Basque or Catalan nationalism. In my opinion, this alternative includes these principles:
1.- The constitutional regulation of territorial self-determination. Independence can be achieved but in a legal context and with enough support (at least 50% of the Census).
2.- The principle of equal citizenship in all the territory for all the actual citizens and descendants, with disregard to questions of national origin and future status of the different territories.
3.- The principle of cultural sovereignty for the different nationalities in the different territories, with capacity to participate independently in the international affairs in this dimension – culture, education, etc- .
4.- The equality of rights of the different nationalities and cultures in all the territory, specially in the language dimension.
A multicultural approach to common services (education, health care, social services, etc), with guarantees for all languages.
The strict separation of territorial entities (State and Regional authorities) and culture or nationality.
The technical status of enclaves or territories is the result of historic events of little current relevance. Ceuta and Melilla are just as much a part of Morocco and Gibraltar is of Spain. Some of the non-self governing territories listed do not want independence. On point 1 above, the Spanish Government has not permitted a plebiscite in the Basque Country or Catalonia for fear that the result would be a defeat for it, just as the Partido Popular was disappointed not to win the last Basque elections.
Re: Spain, Gibraltar, Catalonia and the Basque Country
Enviado por el día 18 de Abril de 2004 a las 15:05
A ver escama de pacotilla si te lees los libros de historia de las personas decentes en vez de "postear" tanta propaganda nazi-paleta del Alto-Ampurdán.
¿Cuando vais a anexionar Andorra?
Saludos desde el Territorio Independiente del Masnou .
¡Viva la Costa Brava y Dorada libre!.
¡Fuera catalanes de los hoteles españoles de la Costa Brava!.
¡Ah! y Valencia y Baleares español.Of Course!
***Nota.- A que va a ser que estos catalanitos descendientes de extremeños no se enteran de eso de la globalización.( El Maresme está repleto de magrebies y senegales y Barcelona y las huertas de Lérida ni os cuento)
La noche me confunde
¿Cuando vais a anexionar Andorra?
Saludos desde el Territorio Independiente del Masnou .
¡Viva la Costa Brava y Dorada libre!.
¡Fuera catalanes de los hoteles españoles de la Costa Brava!.
¡Ah! y Valencia y Baleares español.Of Course!
***Nota.- A que va a ser que estos catalanitos descendientes de extremeños no se enteran de eso de la globalización.( El Maresme está repleto de magrebies y senegales y Barcelona y las huertas de Lérida ni os cuento)
La noche me confunde
Re: Re: Spain, Gibraltar, Catalonia and the Basque Country
Enviado por el día 18 de Abril de 2004 a las 18:42
Que te parece Arctos si les damos la independencia a los cabrones separatistas el mismo día se le conceda por parte francesa a los territorios a los que también aspiran anexionarse. O sea, nunca, porque estos franceses son más listos y no se andan con rodeos para cortar por lo sano. Que te parece si ponemos como condición a los imperialistas vascos y catalanes (por que lo son, que el imperialismo consiste en la voluntad de anexión de territorios no propios), los echamos de España el mismísimo día que la "grand Nation" les regale a los vascos Iparralde y a los catalanes El Languedoc?
Si pusiéramos esta condición se les bajarían los humos y seguramente buscarían soluciones más solidarias y "comunitarias".
Lo que me pone enfermo es que no se conforman con reclamar "lo que creen suyo", sino que se corren mentalmente cuando otras regiones abren la boca para pedir cosas parecidas. En realidad lo que más desean es la desintegración de España. Está visto que muchas naciones no pueden vivir en paz, necesitan dictadores como Tito! Que asco ya!
Si pusiéramos esta condición se les bajarían los humos y seguramente buscarían soluciones más solidarias y "comunitarias".
Lo que me pone enfermo es que no se conforman con reclamar "lo que creen suyo", sino que se corren mentalmente cuando otras regiones abren la boca para pedir cosas parecidas. En realidad lo que más desean es la desintegración de España. Está visto que muchas naciones no pueden vivir en paz, necesitan dictadores como Tito! Que asco ya!
Re: Re: Re: Spain, Gibraltar, Catalonia and the Basque Country
Enviado por el día 19 de Abril de 2004 a las 04:19
Asi es escamot,debemos eliminar COMO SEA la mierda afriespañola de nuestros PAISES,AFRI-ESPAÑA es RETRASO y GITANOS,dos paises ricos y avanzados como EUSKADI y CATALUNYA no deben ser relacionados copn esa raza afri-gitano-española.
¡GORA EUSKAL HERRIA!
¡GORA EUSKAL HERRIA!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Spain, Gibraltar, Catalonia and the Basque Country
Enviado por el día 19 de Abril de 2004 a las 14:09
Querido gorrinin ;hoy no puedo atenderte como es debido por que estoy posteando con personas y no tengo mucho tiempo para ti.
Oink...oink...onik ... Bueno vale ya te llevaré mas tarde unas bellotitas euscaldunas para consolarte, pero ahora vuelve a la pocilga y portate bien.
Saludos gorrinin.
Oink...oink...onik ... Bueno vale ya te llevaré mas tarde unas bellotitas euscaldunas para consolarte, pero ahora vuelve a la pocilga y portate bien.
Saludos gorrinin.
Re: Re: Re: Spain, Gibraltar, Catalonia and the Basque Country
Enviado por el día 19 de Abril de 2004 a las 14:25
Pues si Mandingo; creo que estos analfabetos del pais de la boina, se piensan que todos los que votan a ERC, PNV,etc. etc.son "todos los catalanes y todos los vascos".
Todavía no se enteran de que tanto en la gran región española de Catauña y las provincias vascas, quedan bastantes españoles catalanes y vascos, que mas pronto que tarde les mandaremos todos juntos a tomar por el "ano" <que es el culo en castellano>... y eso sin contar con la enorme cantidad de ciudadanos catalanes y vascos que viven en otras regiones españolas y que además son buenos españoles.
Ah! se me olvidaba los buenos ciudadanos vasco-franceses y catalano-franceses que no quieren saber nada de nada de esos trogloditas añorantes de la tribu.
Saludos.
Todavía no se enteran de que tanto en la gran región española de Catauña y las provincias vascas, quedan bastantes españoles catalanes y vascos, que mas pronto que tarde les mandaremos todos juntos a tomar por el "ano" <que es el culo en castellano>... y eso sin contar con la enorme cantidad de ciudadanos catalanes y vascos que viven en otras regiones españolas y que además son buenos españoles.
Ah! se me olvidaba los buenos ciudadanos vasco-franceses y catalano-franceses que no quieren saber nada de nada de esos trogloditas añorantes de la tribu.
Saludos.
